


14.01: Sam's Star Shines

by nochickflickpodcast



Series: NCFM Season 14 [1]
Category: Supernatural
Genre: (No) Chick Flick Moments, Character Analysis, Comedy, Discussion, Episode: s14e01 Stranger in a Strange Land, Fancast, Gen, Humor, Meta, Podcast, Screenplay/Script Format, transcript
Language: English
Status: Completed
Published: 2019-06-03
Updated: 2019-06-03
Packaged: 2020-04-06 22:07:45
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 1
Words: 11,706
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/19071640
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/nochickflickpodcast/pseuds/nochickflickpodcast
Summary: Join us in covering S14E1, "Stranger in a Strange Land", or the one where Sam has a grief beard, Jack gets his beatings on, and why the heck is Nick here anyway? Tune in to find out why Michael's shopping for a pet needing a forever home.





	14.01: Sam's Star Shines

**Author's Note:**

> Complete transcript of (No) Chick Flick Moment's 14.01: Sam's Star Shines
> 
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> 
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> Come join us!

Remmy: All right, all right, all right.

Bea: So here we are.

Remmy: So hello! This is (No) Chick Flick Moments: A Supernatural Podcast, and this is our first episode so give us a round of applause.

Bea: Yay!

Remmy: Yay! I am your co-host, Remmy.

Bea: And I am your other co-host, Bea.

Remmy: We are going to be talking about today season 14 episode 1. Like I said, this is our first episode of our season 14 hiatus re-watch. Episode 1 is “Stranger in a Strange Land”. It was written by Andrew Dabb and directed by Thomas J Wright. The outline, or the episode description, is: _Sam, Mary and the apocalypse World refugees continue their search for Dean. meanwhile Castiel’s attempt to get information from a demon does not go according to plan._

Bea: To say the least.

Remmy: [laughs] Hey, that was — that was actually more true to the actual episode than most.

Bea: Yeah, we start off right away with Sam and his grief beard, driving in the rain.

Remmy: The grief beard!

Bea: The grief beard!

Remmy: That was a beautiful first image of 2018.

Bea: Excellent shot, although it was really short because we skip almost immediately over to Jamil, this character who has awakened for prayer —

Remmy: A holy man.

Bea: — a holy man. As he is going through his prayers, he looks up to find Michael appearing in the sofa chair.

Remmy: Yeah, our first look at — no it's not our first look of Michael!Dean, I was going to say our first look at Michael!Dean, but we did get that — our first glimpse at the finale of last season, so...

Bea: Yeah, we got that slight teaser, seeing him with his paperboy cap on, and then here he is, sitting quite, um — I don't know if I would say smugly? I would _certainly_ not say regally, but he is trying to be intimidating to this guy.

Remmy: He doesn't have to try very hard.

Bea: No, yeah, he pretty much falls immediately back on his ass, and they play a quick guessing game. He's not God. He's not Gabriel. He's “the better one.”

Remmy: Uh-huh, there we go. _That's_ the one.

Bea: Yeah so, thank you again, Michael, you're quite humble as you're coming in here. And we're brought with is basically the theme for this episode, which is: _What do you want?_

Remmy: How did — what did you think with that question?

Bea: I know on initial watch it didn't strike me as hard as it does with hindsight. That “What do you want it?” just looked to be, initially, that Michael was trying to catch people in lies, or he was using an excuse to look down on whoever his asker was. Like, it didn't matter what you said, he was going to find some way to tear it apart, so that was my initial impression with this. He was just using an excuse to be like, “Actually, here's how you are feeding me b******* and you don't even know it.”

Remmy: Yeah, and like you said, he's definitely looking for an — I don't even know what he's looking for, but it's not what people have been feeding him so far. I did think it was really interesting, I thought — Okay so, this is the first time that we have seen Jensen actually play as Michael and he — y’know, that we have even seen Jensen play as anything or anybody other than Dean — and he is just very _centered_. I don't know, it's very hard to explain it, but he —

Bea: — he has this still core inside of him.

Remmy: Yes, and he also is like, _he_ knows the answer he is looking for, and you can see that he knows the answer he is looking for, but we don't know what that answer is yet, and I don't even know where we're going yet.

Bea: Yeah, and to have something that you would almost see anyone come up with as their first answer to “What do you want?” — ”Well, I want peace and love” — and then you see Michael immediately turn around and point out the inconsistencies in your own life, saying, y’know, if these are the things that you really wanted then how come you behaved in these other manners? Basically going to a QED moment of “You don't even know what you want.”

Remmy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And if you are lost or if you are unsure, if you are not resolute or absolute in your identity, then there is no place for you in Michael's better world, which is how he ends the scene. He says, “I want what I’ve always wanted: a better world.”

Bea: Yeah, and what a topic that could be right there, because how do you define a better world? What we're seeing from Michael's perspective is a world without indecision, I guess, that there is clarity between a thought and an action. He's not coming to these people looking to help; he's looking to pass judgment.

Remmy: So then we have Mary and the hunter hub.

Bea: Yes.

Remmy: Our first glimpse into the hunter hub, our first glorious, _glorious_ glimpse.

Bea: I loved it! I was so excited to see all of the activity that was going on inside of the bunker.

Remmy: Yeah.

Bea: We have maybe half a dozen people in there at any given time, and all of a sudden there are all cogs turning, the wheels are moving, and there is just so much activity. It's really fresh and really exciting, I enjoyed it so much.

Remmy: Oh absolutely, and you really do — it's so _interesting_ to see the bunker in this new light, because for the past so many years it has been Sam and Dean’s home, the Batcave. But to see it like this? It's a way that we haven't even seen it when we got Men of Letters flashbacks in season 9 or 10. It's just this hive of activity that actually fits the bunker so well, as the Batcave, as the hunter hub. It was just this moment of, “Oh, this is how it should be.”

Bea: Yeah! This is how it could be and —

Remmy: Yes.

Bea: — as a season opener it spoke to so much possibility of what roads they could follow. Now we see a whole gaggle of side characters that are involved in hunting, and y’know, there are opportunities available to either bring them in as side bits or to follow them. There's just so many questions that are raised as soon as you bring more people into the equation.

Remmy: Yeah definitely.

Bea: And yeah, we got to see a hunter coming out of the kitchen like, “Soups on, f*****s.”

Remmy: I was grinning ear to ear.

Bea: Augh! Just the vibrancy of the place.

Remmy: _Chief._

Bea: Chief!

Remmy: [laughs] Chief!

Bea: Lordt.

Remmy: I — okay so, from the get-go — I mean, we are seeing Sam’s star shine, which I am always here for, I always just get so excited for. I love everything that they've done with Sam this episode. It's phenomenal.

Bea: Yeah, because so often we see him as a more supportive role! He leans towards doing a more thoughtful moment before action, and here he is in a role where he has to step up, he has to be the decisive one, and it is really bringing out this side of his character that we don't get to see often and I am so glad we get to now.

Remmy: You can almost see him looking over his shoulder to where Dean’s _not_ and say, “What do we do?” but he rises to the occasion spectacularly.

Bea: Yeah, he has to make the decisions. It's only been three weeks since Dean's gone and yet he has really thrown himself into this new role. He's almost taking a page out of Dean's book where it is through action that he keeps his mind busy, and it is finding a course, finding a path, that is keeping him sane right now.

Remmy: Right, right. I could talk for 20 minutes on how many feels this whole hunter hub, chief, action Sam, and this glimpse into who Sam is without Dean, and how this ties into or mirrors — it mirrors the themes of season 12 with the British Men of Letters and the hunter network that Sam was building, and how excited he was for that opportunity and he saw the possibilities of it. Like I said, I could talk for 20 minutes on this. I won't subject you guys to that —

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: — but it just threw me right straight back there. It was his dream realized and he's unfortunately too tied up in Dean and trying to find his brother to — not to say he doesn't appreciate it, but — to dedicate himself to it in the way we know he wants to.

Bea: Yeah, he’s midstream of this right now. He's not able to take a step back. You can see he's not eating, he's barely sleeping, and he's just moving from one thing to the next.

Remmy: Good s***. Good s***, good s***, good s***.

Bea: Finger kisses.

Remmy: Yes. And Sam asks after Jack —

Bea: — And then we go to Jack getting whooped by Bobby.

Remmy: I liked that too! It just really rang very wholesome to me, y’know? Jack is getting a beating and I'm like, “Aww, it's so cute!” But it was kind of cute.

Bea: Yeah, he is looking to gain some skills now that he’s lost the ones that he’s been relying on so heavily. It was really nice to see Bobby as the mentor in this moment because they had such a history over in the apocalypse world, and to have that carry forward — I was really pleased with that level of consistency.

Remmy: Mhmm. And we start sowing the seeds of Jack’s... resentment? Is that the right word?

Bea: I don't know if I would put it as resentment, but he just is feeling very helpless.

Remmy: Mhmm.

Bea: He has a perception where it is his usefulness and his ability to help the people around him that he considers his value in.

Remmy: We’ll call this the Castiel Factor.

Bea: [laughs] The Castiel Factor. If he's not useful to the people around him, if he can't protect the world against this Michael that has infiltrated, then he sits there very frustrated, almost beating himself up for not being able to help more. It's like he feels like he's lacking because he can see all the hunters around him in action and he can see Sam in action, [and] all of these skills they are able to bring to the table, and so far as Jack knows his only skills are the flash-bang of his powers. To try and get more [skills] — I mean he was born with those powers, but now that he's human it's like, “Okay, now I have to learn how to box, and it's not something that comes with a snap of the fingers. I need to rely on other people to get this going and even then I'm not going quickly enough.”

Remmy: Yeah. It's just like he feels useless in a kind of Castiel way when he doesn't have his powers. He’s tying his worth to his powers, but I think he's also very frustrated and — it’s petulant almost, but he's also like an infant so [laughs]. Anyways, let's move on. Sorry about that.

Bea: No worries. So our next scene we go to that Motown barbecue exterior, where a well-dressed demon enters and approaches Castiel's table. And Cas is my mood too, where he just goes, “Oh, God.”

Remmy: [laughs] Yes exactly, definitely. It was definitely my mood in the moment, where I was like, really? Too soon, too soon.

Bea: Yeah, we are invited to judge this character who's just shown up, and that’s being a little ostentatious and just being like, “Oh God, what's coming?”

Remmy: And very Crowley! I remember on the first watch I was like, every single scene that had this demon — this as of yet unnamed demon — in it, I was just rolling my eyes. Now? I actually really, really, really liked him on the rewatch. I did.

Bea: Yeah, and I have thoughts about him with regards to Michael's question too.

Remmy: Yeah, and I don't even know if I even gave it a second thought that, when I first watched it, that Kip the demon was actually asked Michael's question, and that's just so interesting.

Bea: Yeah, that his whole affectation was invited after he was given that thought-provoking question and came to his own conclusions of like, “Well, I want everything.” Again, I think that there is this really neat “show, don't tell” aspect, that Michael would have found him wanting because Kip is coming in acting like somebody else, pulling the manner of a king. “This is not kingly behavior,” to do what he actually wants to do, and instead he is going to mimic what he knows best.

Remmy: Crowley!

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: Which, he really brought it back around because when he was first introduced as a character, the viewer and Cas are just like, “Oh, God.”

Bea: “What’s this?”

Remmy: Yeah, “What’s this?” But then we are ultimately given a reason for it and it's an _interesting_ reason.

Bea: Yeah, it fits all together with where he has decided, “Okay, I want to be the king of Hell. This is the role model I am choosing for it,” and is this even actually what he wants, or is it what he has landed on after being asked that question by Michael and not really being able to answer it at the time?

Remmy: Mhmm.

Bea: So yeah, then we have Cas saying like, “Okay, I need information,” because he's looking for Dean, and Kip goes, “Wait, you lost a Winchester?”

Remmy: Uh-huh. “Oh, that's hilarious. _You_? And _Dean_?”

Bea: Seeing the facial expressions that he has when he does the “joined at the everything” [motion] and Cas is already like _I am so done_. Again, it goes to how much of Kip’s affectation he's working with, like is he being purposefully annoying? Is this what he sees as Crowley's behavior towards them?

Remmy: And he's having fun.

Bea: And Cas is having none of it. He goes immediately to threats like, “I will burn you to ash,” and so there is this whole invoked smouldering fury that he has, and Kip just goes, “Yeah, I don't really care,” and gets his reinforcements.

Remmy: And yes, so... Cas was done pretty dirty this episode, wasn't he?

Bea: Cas was done dirty! He was immediately subdued. My question was, well, how did he not realize that there were more demons there?

Remmy: I know!

Bea: Don't demons have a true face that angels are able to see? And so he's been sitting there, presumably been looking around, but has he just been too distracted by the worries that he has or does he just not care?

Remmy: There's no way. He — well, he definitely couldn't have _known_ , I mean, he was ambushed. He was surprised by the ambush. and he is still an angel, he could sense the demons we assume. But for now we are just kind of like “… What?”

Bea: “He just got his ass handed to him?”

Remmy: Uh-huh. Castiel? Angel of the Lord?

Bea: Who that?

Remmy: [laughs] Who dat?

Bea: Yeah and then. So. The next scene that we go to is at a church in Duluth, where Sister Jo is scamming, same as usual.

Remmy: Hey now, she _is_ healing people. She's doing what she promised to do. She's a bit of a charlatan about it, but she is healing people.

Bea: Oh, I'm not sitting here being like, “She's a villain.” I'm like, “Good on you, you little entrepreneur you.”

Remmy: Uh-huh.

Bea: And [she’s] living the dream, walking through a back alley with a handful of cash, just counting it. I would just love to have that level of security — in myself, and my surroundings, and my finances — to be able to pull off a stunt like that.

Remmy: I would love to have her jacket. That jacket was on point.

Bea: I loved her outfit.

Remmy: Mhmm. And we get Jensen and Danneel, or Michael and Jo, which is fun.

Bea: She immediately, again, does the _Oh God_ , and I wonder how much Michael actually dislikes [it]. Do you think he resents being compared to God, because he certainly seemed to resent being compared to Gabriel.

Remmy: I agree that he resented being compared to Gabriel, but when the holy man — what was his name?

Bea: Jamil.

Remmy: Jamil said — he said, “Are you God?” and Michael said, “Close enough.”

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: So I'd say he resented being compared to Gabriel, but he actually kind of preened under the question, “Are you God?”

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: And we get — in the alley with Anael — we get a glimpse of [Michael’s] true form, which I know many people were very very excited for.

Bea: Yes! I was hoping for more wings. I understand why they did just the two, but if seraphs get six let's see an archangel that is just straight up blowing the contrast of my TV, just completely f*****g it up.

Remmy: [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Give me so much glow that the TV can't handle it.

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: And it was so brief too, in the show, in the moment. It was like maybe a second and a half.

Bea: Yeah, it was really quick but it was really striking, because again we are reminded that angels have a different vision when it comes to the world, and it makes you think about Castiel walking around looking at his brethren. Like, how many of them look like glow sticks?

Remmy: Or Castiel walking into Motown Meats and not seeing the room full of literal demons!

Bea: Yeah, hey? “Hey look at all these smoky shadows. It's really dark in here!” Like no, honey.

Remmy: [laughing] Okay yeah, I like that.

Bea: But Jo, she recognizes Dean. She recognizes altverse Michael, and she just can't believe why Dean would say yes, and Michael answers it by saying that [Dean] said yes for love.

Remmy: And you know what I thought was really interesting? [It’s] that when Michael asked Jo, “What do you want?” and she answers with something flippant —

Bea: Yeah, she goes off on brand names.

Remmy: — and then Michael says no, you answer[ed] with a lie, you don't get my respect. And Michael says, “You want love,” which was a very, very pretty mirror of what Michael just said Dean fell for.

Bea: Mhmm. Why he said yes.

Remmy: Why he said yes, and I was really looking at that a little sideways too.

Bea: Yeah, that when he walks by her and he has his back to her, she looks like someone who was hurt by the concept that she doesn't have a family or a home. He mentions, y’know, “I can sense how many angels are out there, and I could do something about that, but why would I when they're all like you, so very human and disappointing.” And just having the thought brought up, that there [are] so few of her brethren seems to — I wouldn't say rattle her, but she does turn more pensive at it. It made me think that she might be the rebel pretending to care about all these frivolities, but she probably has people that she lost along the way and has given her reason to harden her heart against it.

Remmy: And on Anael, he definitely hit where it hurts for her. You saw her growing pensive, and I would say _passive_ , and I think that's what leads to well, she's got a healthy sense of self-preservation, so she's going to go with Michael says in the moment. But it's also that she knows he does have this power and he says, y’know, “I could help with that there are so few angels left.” But it's like a moment of hope that he immediately dismantles by saying, “But you want these little human things.” In Michael's eyes, this want for love, this want for family, this want for a home, it's all the same s***. It's all in the same category of _smallness_. He says, “No, you don't want the pretty things, these material things. You want something worse: you want human emotions.”

Bea: Yeah. It's not even the trappings of humanity, it's the meat and bones of humanity. You aren't as separated from it as you think.

Remmy: Mhmm. Yes, yes.

Bea: So after Anael and Michael, we go to Sam checking on Jack in his room. He segues in saying he spoke to Bobby, and it seems like Jack is having a rough day.

Remmy: Yes.

Bea: And Jack to me seemed like he was on the ready to say he was fine. He says it in a way that is very superficial. Sam tries sympathizing about where Jack is without his powers and he says Jack will “get past it.” Sam has faith in this.

Remmy: Yeah, we're getting more of a foundation on where Jack is right now, y’know, how is he really feeling about this new human state of himself.

Bea: And also that Sam is getting pulled in so many directions at once, and doesn't really have time for Jack. [But] before he can really get into any detail with how Jack really is doing, Mary interrupts to say that Nick's awake.

Remmy: Yes. _He_ is awake.

Bea: Yes, so Sam leaves and Jack almost seems ready, like he’s expecting it. When Sam gets outside the door where Nick is being held, he has to steel himself before he can go in and turn on the light.

Remmy: We see a lot of that from Sam in this scene, and I really loved everything Jared did here. Yeah, so we see Sam steel himself before he goes into the room, and he actually even talks with Mary to say, “Did he say anything?” and Mary said, “I didn't talk to him. I can't even look at him.”

Bea: Yeah, and she hasn't had hardly half the time experience that Sam has had [with him], and Sam is able to find this core, go in, and not only look at Nick but to ask after his well-being and to treat physical wounds on him.

Remmy: And he's just so compassionate it's so — it's again, Sam's shining star this episode. He is everything good in himself right now, for all that he is exhausted and pulled six different ways, and so scared of Nick, and of the whole Dean situation, and of having these hunters’ lives in his hands, and six different things, like I said. But _still_ he goes into the room, and Nick is sitting in the dark staring at the wall like a f*****g creeper, like — what the f*** was that?

Bea: I feel like they are trying to show “the kid isn't all right,” that these nightmares he's been having, he says they’re getting better — so who can even guess what the last three weeks look like if this is where he's currently at, y’know?

Remmy: Ugh. So I'm trying to project my mind and feelings back to October 2018 and how I felt in the moment when we opened the door, and _there is Mark P_ —

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: — and at this point we don't know if it's Nick or Lucifer. I mean, we were told pretty quick that it was Nick _not_ Lucifer, but oh my God — after the sigh of relief Lucifer death, the perfect resolution on that in the finale of last season, to see Nick… It was like a slap to the face. I mean...

Bea: It's the tension ratcheted right back up, and you're like _we can't get a break_. Lucifer is still here, he is still haunting everything, and my God there was so much relief for Sam at the end of season 13 because —

Remmy: I know!

Bea: — there's this demon, this literal demon, that has been haunting him for —

Remmy: A decade.

Bea:— a decade! And then we don't even get to be one episode later before that phantom has returned. But I also recall, when first seeing Nick, that I was almost intrigued by the implications that went along with it. Like, we hear Sam throw out the theory that the archangel blade is designed to kill the angel not the vessel, but that was still not in line with what Nick actually is according to the continuity of the show.

Remmy: Right. Nick is — well, I should just solo rant on my mic and release a special episode about why is Nick even here. Like, Lucifer's body was not even Nick's body; it was a vessel. It was a cage. It was an inanimate, soulless _thing_. It was a thing that Crowley manufactured in Hell.

Bea: And it's like, did he need Nick's little old Hell soul in order to design it?

Remmy: Was Nick even in Hell? Does he even deserve it?

Bea: Does Nick get in Heaven??

Remmy: Why wouldn't he? For saying yes? Well… yeah, okay, okay.

Bea: So back on topic.

Remmy: So Sam, yeah. Nick is in the dark like a creeper, and Sam is so compassionate and so composed, and Sam leaves the room and just lets out the breath that he's been holding.

Bea: Yeah, his breath shakes, and I'm thinking of [what] he says later to Cas, that he would do anything to try and find Dean. And here he is: stepping into this room, taking care of Lucifer's vessel, taking the opportunity to to ask if Nick remembers anything of what Michael might have said to Lucifer, if there's any details that they can use.

Remmy: And Sam is in the hallway and he gets a phone call.

Bea: Yep and it's [laughs] — Kip is like, “Hey, it's me, ya boy. The one who stole your angel.”

Remmy: [laughing]

Bea: And again I'm like, “Your affectation is intentionally irritating, and I love it.”

Remmy: I do love it though. I mean, I remember hating it — again, the second that he walked into the door I was like, “No, no,” but then on the rewatch you can actually appreciate his choices and his character.

Bea: And what his role is for, yeah.

Remmy: Uh-huh, uh-huh. It's fun. I think it's fun.

Bea: And then we go over to the war room, where Sam is busy packing up his bag. Mary is like, “You know this is a trap, right?” and it’s like, “Almost definitely!” Bobby, Jack, and Maggie are listening in, and Sam is just saying [they]'re going to get Cas back, y’know, “Pack the usual stuff. Mary will come with me. Bobby, you'll go with Maggie,” and Jack wants to join. He says it's because he _has_ to.

Remmy: Yes so, Bobby jumps in and immediately he's like, “No, the kid’s not ready for this, this is not, he's gonna —” Basically, he didn't say this but, Bobby can recognize that Jack would not only endanger himself, he would be a liability. And I thought that Sam shouldn't have brushed it off in the moment, y’know? He just said Jack needs this and Bobby kind of accepted it, but Bobby knows better than Sam does, who we have been shown has not been around. He just did a round trip to Atlanta, Georgia. He's been gone — we assume he's been living out of the Impala, basically, for the past three weeks.

Bea: Yeah, he hasn't spent any real quality time around the bunker, and yet he will make this call just because he understands or he empathizes with the position Jack feels he is in. You know, Sam is still coming into everything he does with heart.

Remmy: Absolutely. Like you said it's just pure — not empathy, [but] almost like projection onto Jack because Sam is like, “Jack _needs_ this.” I mean, what has Sam been doing? He's been go-go-go, like you said, and keeping on the hunts, and keeping on the hunt for Dean to keep his mind off of this absolute terror that he's feeling over the whole Dean situation. And so he's looking Jack, who is almost like similarly demoralized, but for a completely different reason, and he turns to Bobby and says, “He needs this,” because if Sam were in Jack's shoes this is exactly what he would do. But I take that, when Sam was talking to Jack in Jack's room earlier, it was made obvious that Sam is not exactly comfortable talking to Jack because he's just been _gone_.

Bea: Yeah, that there still may be a level of pantomime with what [Sam]'s doing because there's so much on his shoulders, and he's missed so much of what's going on with Jack.

Remmy: But compared to what we saw with Jack and Bobby in the gym, that was so much more organic and genuine. I would say that Bobby cares more than even Sam does in this moment.

Bea: Well, these are people that have spent time together and have grown comfortable with each other, but Sam has to put things into action. I feel like he wants to help Jack because this is among the things that he perceives as solvable, y’know? “Okay, Jack is feeling useless. We’ll give him something that will help him feel useful.” Check that thing off the list, [like], “This is a way I can help him,” even if it's not the complete thought. But I mean — with all of this critique that I'm throwing, I still think that he made the right decision for Jack. It was just probably a detrimental decision to their group.

Remmy: For sure, for sure. And so Jack is all, “Yeah! Let’s Go!” and he starts loading up a gun immediately.

Bea: He puppy-dog runs out that door.

Remmy: Uh-huh. Like _oh boy let's go!_ And then we go back to Motown Meats — I'm going to keep saying that name every time I have an opportunity to say it, because I love the name of that restaurant —

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: — Motown Meats. And we're back at Motown Meats, and Kip has his coffee, and Cas is so f*****g done and this whole scene — I loved the scene, I really did. This is the scene where on the first watch I was like, “Oh, Kip,” but on the second watch I was like, “This is really, _really_ interesting.”

Bea: Yeah.

Remmy: This is really well written. This is a very interesting narrative. I actually have in my notes _Bea, I want a blow-by-blow._ Give me the scene.

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: I want everything in this scene because I want to talk about — I think that every line of dialogue in this scene was just so _fun_ and you could dissect it to pieces.

Bea: We are seeing the cracks in the facade that Kip is projecting here, because he says that he just drinks coffee because he likes the taste, just like “salt water taffy and _babies,_ ” and that he's being a good host just the way mother would want him to. So there's all these different aspects of his personality that are shining through real quick on each of these lines, and Cas questions, “Why am I here? Am I bait?” and Kip says that's what Castiel's for, isn't it?

Remmy: I like that line.

Bea: I was like, what a shot to the solar plexus [laughs]

Remmy: Uh-huh. Oh yeah, for sure, that definitely hit where it hurt. But I did like the line, and also it was almost meta, y’know, because of what we did with Cas this episode.

Bea: Yeah exactly.

Remmy: And it's pretty much the writer maybe even poking fun at himself for shuttling Cas into this role again.

Bea: Yes. And yes, so Kip says that he needs something from Sam. He had a revelation thanks to Michael; he thought it over and he wants _everything_. And like we discussed earlier, I really like how quickly this shuttles along the backstory for his character. It gives us further insight into who Michael's been talking to, and it also raised the question of what sort of implications came for the people that Michael spoke to. Because if Kip had one conversation with him and this is the way that he went, where did Jamil go after this conversation? Where did these other people that Michael was talking to, what did they do with this meeting?

Remmy: Now that's interesting because I didn't even consider — I was going to say the people that Michael _spared_ , okay, because I read this as like — that first scene when Michael says, “And you don't deserve to be saved,” and we kind of cut to this standoff that's not really a standoff, I just assumed that Michael killed Jamil. But then I was looking at Kip later on like, “Oh, so however Kip answered this question, he was spared by Michael.” He must have answered in a fashion that Michael deemed honest or honorable.

Bea: Well I don't even know if that was true, because Kip said he had to think it over to have the answer, because when approached with it he didn't know. So to me that suggests that when Michael was going around polling plebs on their opinion of what they want, they are so far beneath him that cleaning up after these conversations isn't on his radar. My impression was: he talks to Jamil, he leaves; he talks to Jo, he leaves; he talks to Kip, he leaves. He doesn't care about any of these people. He cares about the opportunity to judge them wanting.

Remmy: I love that, because my first impression — my _second_ impression, this is my second time watching the episode — was that he killed Jamil because Jamil didn't answer in a way that Michael approved of. And so operating off that assumption it was so interesting to me with Kip, where Kip was — we were told was asked the same question and he survived. So me, my brain is going, “What? What why would Michael spare him?” But you're totally right, my assumption is just that: an assumption. That is so interesting, Bea! You pull the best out of me and I love it.

Bea: [laughing] Clapping hands.

Remmy: We have such good talks.

Bea: I love it. There's always something that you don't think of it on your own, and it's hearing the perspectives of other people that becomes so exciting.

Remmy: And, guys, this is why we just adore your asks and your emails and your comments on our meta because we're here for it.

Bea: We want the conversation to continue.

Remmy: I know! We do this every week, but we could go for a literal hours and hours and hours so @ us guys. Come on.

Bea: Yeah!

Remmy: Moving on [laughs]

Bea: So now we get a driving scene, and Sam confronts his mother about what he is seeing as an aggravating optimism.

Remmy: Yeah, I thought like — okay, this whole episode I was like, “Sam, stop being mean to your mom!” Like, come on.

Bea: I had such empathy for both of them, y’know? Mary is trying to find the silver lining and trying to have confidence in the future that they want to obtain. “We're going to find him [and] things are going to be fine.” Whereas where Sam’s sitting, he feels that he needs to be more objective. He needs to be able to look at, you know, “Here's the half-dozen ways that this could go, and here's how I'm going to move my chess pieces along the way,” and so to try and assume an outcome is really dangerous for the shoes that he's in.

Remmy: Well, because — well for Sam at least, he's the one who's making the decisions. The weight is all on his shoulders. He doesn't have Dean in the driver's seat to turn to to work it through with, it's all on Sam. So kicking off from that, he is feeling worn down. It's been three weeks.

Bea: Yes. He has to hold so many uncertainties in the air for so long.

Remmy: And they're very obviously taking their toll. I think that, at this point, to hear Mary's endless optimism is just like an ice pick to the temple every time, like, “I can't. I can't. I can't.”

Bea: Yeah, because he raises the specter that [maybe] Dean's already been burned out by Michael, [they] don't know what's going on, and Mary is just, “No, we can't think of it on that grounds. Dean is scared and alone, and the worst might happen but we have to stay on the good because otherwise the bad is just going to overwhelm.”

Remmy: And was there anything of note or interest in the Bobby-Jack conversation? I don't remember.

Bea: For the most part, I found it more interesting in hindsight that Bobby was glancing to Jack — who seems quite desolate in the passenger seat — and he said, “You saved me and mine a dozen times over in the apocalypse world. Whatever happens, we got your back.”

Remmy: [wails] Oh no.

Bea: Seeing where we go in this season, I mean...

Remmy: [wails]

Bea: We're not going to speak about it now. It was just interesting to me to see this moment between their characters and then [to know] how that evolves down the road.

Remmy: Sorry for shouting at you!

Bea: No, it's a shouty moment! I get it. I don't want to get into it but like... An angry face is drawn onto the screen right now.

Remmy: In my notes I have a lot of faces — smiley or crying faces in my notes — and I should have a little mean face.

Bea: It's like, “On a scale of 1 to 10 how much pain are you in right now?” [laughs]

Remmy: So we get to the parking lot and we run through — we are vaguely going through the plan. Mary holds up Ruby's knife and she's like, “The demon-killing knife?” Like we've forgotten what it is? Like it hasn't been a thing for the past decade? But [laughs]

Bea: I took it more that she was surprised that [Sam] was giving it to, her because he has to follow it up saying, “They're going to search me, I'm going to lose it. You take it, it's smarter.”

Remmy: But in the fight later it's like everyone's armed with an angel blade anyways [laughs] And I'm just like —

Bea: Oh, I know. I feel like perhaps the choice to have Sam immediately searched upon entry was to help raise the stakes for us, but at the same time I'm like — Kip’s whole mannerisms, when we’re sitting in Sam's perspective, it begs you to not take him seriously. So even though they're trying to raise the stakes by having Sam go in unarmed, it still is at the same point where Sam's like, “... Are you serious?” And yeah, it didn't convince me, but I also think that it didn't _need_ to convince me.

Remmy: Sam goes in alone to Motown Meats and he's greeted by Kip. He's finally introduced as Kip… ling? Kipler? What's his name.

Bea: Kipling.

Remmy: Kipling! Kip to my friends [laughs] and Sam, like, dead-eyed looking at this guy who's a full foot shorter than him.

Bea: He's just _wrap it up motions_ inside of his head. Meanwhile Kip is like, “Legend! Icon! Shoulders! Hair! Beyoncé!” This whole string of things where Sam is like, “Yeah, okay, anyways, I'm here for my friend —” You can see he's not even looking at Kip, he's looking back at Cas and just walks past [Kip], he's refusing handshakes. Kip is, again, being very performative. He's putting on a song and dance and Sam is just like, “I do not care what tune you're playing. I want to go _now_.”

Remmy: I loved, I loved everything Sam did there. “Cool. Kip.” And then he walked straight past him to go check on Cas.

Bea: And Cas’ little, “I'm more embarrassed than hurt,” I'm like yeah buddy [laughs] I'm sorry you had to go through this.

Remmy: [laughs] Exactly! I love — I liked everything about it. I like the Beyoncé “You're an idol!”

Bea: Mhmm and Sam's like, “I have had three weeks of insomnia due to stress, I don't need this right now.”

Remmy: Uh-huh, and Kip finally rounds around to the point.

Bea: Yeah. Maggie and Jack are pulled in and Jack immediately gets a beat-on, because this poor kid hasn't suffered enough. Sam's face turns a bit more calculating; he's already like, “Okay, I was attempting to humor it to this point, and now my humor is gone,” and Kip throws out this thing of “late capitalism.” I'm like, this f*****g guy is full of so much jargon, please stop. [But] he wants to make a deal. Sam’s just incredulous, and Kip calls him to sit, and again Sam is refusing all of this s*** and [so] Kip calls him a barbarian.

Remmy: Yeah, as he's peeling peanuts onto the floor.

Bea: Chewing with his mouth open. I'm like, you — [huffs] yeah it's —

Remmy: So performative.

Bea: It's all these little elements of an act.

Remmy: And I think — well, again, for like the fifth time I will say, in the moment of watching it — so I'm telling you, my lovely, lovely listeners, go watch it again, because I know you were mad the first time, because I sure as s*** know I was, but on the second watch I was just like, “Oh, this is — oh, I love him.”

Bea: Yeah, there's more to it than meets the eye.

Remmy: Right, right. I was very endeared to his character this watch through.

Bea: Yeah, and he brought up a really interesting subject too, that Hell is without a king. I feel like there is definitely fertile ground there if they ever want to explore it. I mean, we got a shorter time now if they do, with only one season, but it was still an interesting concept that — y’know, if this was a wedding, then Sam is the father that Kipling is going to to get the blessing from like, “May I please, sir? Can I be the king of Hell?”

Remmy: Exactly.

Bea: He's doing what he can to try and force them to work together.

Remmy: He basically said — it's exactly that: Please, sir. Well, I immediately went back to what Kip said to Cas. He said, “I need something from Sam Winchester.” Now of course Kip [is] not showing his hand to Sam in this moment, but that “I need something from Sam” was so telling. And then, when he brought up the empty throne, my ears immediately perked up, and then Kip goes on to say, “I want the ‘Crowley’ deal. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.”

Bea: Yes.

Remmy: And then he lays out this thing, and then he even lays out _why_. So this is when he goes into the details of why he's performing, and the image of the king, and why he needs this deal with Sam. He says, “Oh, well, _I'm_ not afraid of you, but _they_ are,” aka the entirety of Hell, aka the king must have — almost must be Winchester-approved to — not be respected, but to…

Bea: To command the rest.

Remmy: Right, right. To almost offer security — a level of security. So that's one level of it, that's one theory. Now, of course where my mind is immediately going is not, y’know, the demons are afraid, that if the Winchesters aren't happy with Hell's rule then the Winchesters will put a stop to it, as they so often have. There's no such thing as a too powerful creature in Hell that the Winchesters haven't put down. There's no command that if you're not Winchester-approved — there's a reason that Crowley, this 300 year old demon who was not the best of anybody or anything, but there's a reason he was so long lasting. It was because the Winchesters didn't get it into their heads that he needed to go, and this is what Kip is looking for.

Bea: They had an organic relationship with Crowley, whereas Kip is coming in with this forced one. He is like — he's not that poncy son of a b****; he rode with Genghis Khan. He[‘s done] all these things that are not the current role that he's playing.

Remmy: This is the role it needs to be.

Bea: Yeah, this counterintuitive — counterintuititivity… counter counter counter...

Remmy: [laughs]

Bea: That he is behaving one way and yet he thinks, y’know, this is going to get me into your good graces naturally. There's so much [across] the board where we're like, “Honey, you didn't think this through.”

Remmy: Again, that is the surface that is what we're being told. Now, I'm going to option two, which is when Kip says — what does he say? It's not that “I don't fear you, it's that they do.” Is it ‘respect’ or is it ‘fear’?

Bea: He's not afraid of Sam, but the other demons are.

Remmy: Okay, yeah, so it is “I don't fear you, but they do.” Now, we can say that the Winchesters have reputations, but me I'm thinking: boy King, _boy King_ , **boy King Sam**!

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: I am freaking out! I am freaking out in this moment, because it is exactly as you said: this underling like Crowley, who went to the Knight of Hell in his fishing cabin to say “this is your scepter,” and then the Knight of Hell — what was his name? doesn't matter — and Crowley. So Crowley says, “This is your seat. Lucifer is gone. Please accept,” and then this Knight of Hell says, “I don't want it. I don't want this throne. You can have it,” whatever. It's basically the exact same situation, where this demon is coming to the rightful heir to the throne, and the only reason that — the only way that he can take it and hold it is if he is boy King-approved.

Bea: Yeah, I thought it was no mistake that it was Sam in this moment. I don't think you would — there would be next to no impact if it was Dean that they were approaching. The fact that it was Sam that Kip needed the blessing from was everything in this moment, because there [are] all these subtleties that you're talking about. This was the boy King of Hell; this is who was intended for the throne and who has said no to it, and even though we see Kip has masked this query with all the trappings of “I want the ‘Crowley’ deal,” in actuality it is like, “You are the rightful heir that I am requesting this from.” That's all the subtext that we're getting from it.

Remmy: Yeah, he does — Kip does need Sam to agree to this.

Bea: Yeah, and he is doing everything he can to kind of smooth things along the way, because when things start to break down he threatens to stop being Crowley and start being who he really is.

Remmy: Because this is his one shot. He has to get approval out the door or he has nothing, because Sam says — Sam says, “You're not Crowley. _You_ know you're not Crowley. _I_ know you're not Crowley, and _they_ know you're not Crowley. So no, I'm not listening to you.”

Bea: Yes, Sam — Kip is going on and on along his way, and then Sam just says _no_ , and even though Kip is trying to sweeten the deal by “knowing things” it's not going to do anything, [but] it's immediately interrupted with Bobby and Mary coming in with guns a-blazing.

Remmy: Uh-huh, uh-huh. And then, yes — and so we enter into this firefight, this extended fight scene that is all over the place. We have parkour demon off the wall —

Bea: We have Mary's smashing demons with like a bottle to the face.

Remmy: Uh-huh.

Bea: Maggie and Jack go into hiding and poor Jack, he steps out because Bobby's had his gun kicked aside and he's on the ground getting his ass whooped, but even though Jack goes to help he goes down quick.

Remmy: I know, I know, yes. And Maggie comes to — no, Mary comes to Maggie and gives her an angel blade.

Bea: We get this little Arya Stark moment of, “Stab ‘em with the pointy end.”

Remmy: I know! It's like, did the apocalypse world have Game of Thrones? Or has she been Netflix binging since she got home — since she got to the new world? I thought that was funny, but then also you have to take a moment to be like, “Why is Maggie even here?” If Jack shouldn't have come, then what the f*** is Maggie doing here.

Bea: Oh, I know.

Remmy: “Stick them with the pointy end.” Okay.

Bea: I know, it's like — I guess she couldn't have weaponry since part of it was she would be bait with Jack, but yeah. She seems to be very overwhelmed with what's going on. This poor kid, right here. You guys didn't even do a second glance, did you?

Remmy: Yeah, yeah, it really was a “why is Maggie here” moment. We gave Jack a hard time, like, look at this poor kid.

Bea: Yes.

Remmy: And Sam gets locked in with Kip, and we don't even cut to Cas at any moment, do we?

Bea: Oh, when we do cut to Cas he's doing a little wriggle in his chair, and he's looking around wildly like, “What's happening??”

Remmy: I — poor Cas.

Bea: I know! I would have loved if we had even a brief glimpse of him fighting against his shackles, or doing something to give us the impression that he was trying to get involved with the fight, as opposed to just sitting there being like, “What's going on behind me? I'm trying to see Sam and Kip getting their asses whooped.”

Remmy: Uh-huh, he didn't even like call out to Mary or Jack at any point. He was just completely shuttled to the side.

Bea: He's there to be bait.

Remmy: [sighs]

Bea: And I'm like, “My poor son.”

Remmy: I know. Poor baby.

Bea: Yep. Sam reels up, he grabs Kip's arm and stabs him with it, and this is when we get that epic moment of Sam yelling out, “Enough! There will be no new King of Hell. Not today. Not ever.” [He] throws the gauntlet down to these guys, and I had the moment on re-watch here, being like, “Okay, if these demons would follow Kip then clearly they aren't the smartest ones, or maybe they're the ones who know this real side of Kip.” But at any rate there's no loyalty there, it's all strong arm tactics, so yeah, as soon as Sam throws down the gauntlet they’re like, “G’bye.”

Remmy: Oh my gosh, this moment, this Sam moment was so epic! It was so good, it was so powerful. It really got me so excited, so wildly excited, for the rest of the season. Wasn't this such a great hook?

Bea: Yeah, when they had it in the little teaser portions ahead of the premiere, that one line there was so evoking, where you were like, “What's happening? What's going on to bring us to this point?”

Remmy: It was phenomenal. I loved it, I loved it, I loved it. I love Sam, I love this whole episode. Jared did a fantastic job. Sam's my boy! It was great, it was great.

Bea: Chef's kiss.

Remmy: Yes, yes. my notes is just like, literal on the page chanting, _King Sam King Sam King Sam_. I even elevated in capitals as I was writing it down.

Bea: [laughing]

Remmy: King Sam!

Bea: I know, I love that concept, and I love that we got to however briefly visit it in the show.

Remmy: And you know it's not over yet, so we'll see.

Bea: Yeah, we'll see where they go with it.

Remmy: No spoilers, we'll see where they go with it.

Bea: Yeah, so then [in] the next scene, we are back at the bunker in the library. Sam is holding a beer to his brow and he is finishing up a phone call with Ketch. Cas comes in and asks in this really earnest voice if Sam’s all right.

Remmy: I so appreciate that. Y’know, early in the episode we got Sam doing the rounds with Sam and Mary, and Sam and Jack, and now Cas gets a turn. It's so very rare that Cas gets a turn, but he did this episode. So we have Sam and Cas talking together, and they have a really good conversation. We get a little glimpse into how Cas is feeling about the Dean situation. Y’know, we've already heard Sam’s and Mary's piece on it, and it was just a really — I really do always appreciate those Sam and Cas friendship moments.

Bea: Same here. I like how we're also seeing the aftermath of this “bait situation,” for lack of a better word, that Cas just went through. He has done some reflecting on it, and he apologizes to Sam for going to go see demons about [Dean], and I really liked that Sam turned around and was like, “No, I wish I had thought of that, because I would do anything to find Dean.” So I saw this as a moment where maybe Cas could have backslid on the character development that he'd been through, but Sam was there to keep that from happening to him.

Remmy: Exactly. And it was really good and it was kind of — not to throw any shade on Dean, but — it was kind of a breath of fresh air to not see Cas immediately shut down in the way that Dean tends to do when we have these kind of conversations. But I do think that we, as the viewer, understand it as Dean’s worry for Cas coming through when he gets mad that Cas took a stupid risk. But Sam really just offers a hand and comfort and empathy, and it was nice.

Bea: Yeah, Sam does have an appreciation for being perceptive, for being analytic[al] about a situation, and if there's calculated risks to something then he can see them doing it. Whereas we see Dean, more often than not, being on the more emotive side, where he is reacting with his gut and perhaps condemning something, whereas Sam would more go, “No, I can see the logic behind it, and I am kind of about it.”

Remmy: And, again, Dean's knee-jerk responses do usually come from a place of heart, so...

Bea: Yes.

Remmy: And then we get Jack and Cas.

Bea: We get this tiny little scene of Mary and Bobby in the kitchen with their beers, and throwing an “old man” and a “sunshine” at each other.

Remmy: Ahhh uh-huh. We're kicking off that “will they, won't they.”

Bea: Mhmm. I mean, that's all I'm going to say about that for the moment, because we know there is — spoilers-not-spoilers — upcoming episodes that more investigate that idea. So yes, it's like you say, we are now going to Cas checking in on Jack, and Jack is — he doesn't even wait for the question from Cas, he just answers in almost exasperation that he's fine. And I like that Cas almost course-corrects immediately into giving Jack some praise, or at least some affirmation — not that he was useful, just that he was good. Y’know, it was good to have him there.

Remmy: Mhmm.

Bea: And Jack doesn't really see it, because he feels like all he did was be a punching bag, and Cas is like, “Yeah, bruh, I was there. Me too.”

Remmy: Yeah, yeah, and on that note, I mean — so Cas is still walking around with a split lip and the black eye, and Jack is standing in front of the mirror trying to clean his own face. So this is coming back around to what even is… is there some bigger thing going on here with Cas? Like, I would almost watch this episode, and then I didn't have the thought at the time, but I would totally understand going into episode two with that, like, tinfoil hat thought in my head: Is Cas human?

Bea: Mhmm. Yeah, I don't know, because I had probably a different impression on my first watch, [but] the more time that goes on I have kind of two boats that I sit in, where it was either Cas — well, maybe it's one predominant one, which is basically that Cas was not healing himself as maybe... I shouldn't say a form of _punishment_ , just that either his mind was on finding Dean and this is more representative that he's not looking after himself. He's more thrown himself into the people around him and what he needs to do there. He’s thinking of himself secondary. And then the other thing was maybe that more darker view, that this is a form of punishment for himself that he got trapped, he got beat up, and he might as well wear the bruises for his f****up.

Remmy: Yeah, but he didn't even offer to heal Jack, I mean. So, we have seen this from Dean before — I would have loved to have seen it more explicitly stated — where Cas offers to heal Dean and Dean just refuses him, right? And we can read into that, especially knowing Dean’s nature, as him punishing himself for his perceived f*** ups.

Bea: So would the offer to [heal] Jack bring anything to what his character is going through right now? Like, if he was offered to be healed by Cas and then refuses, would that just cloud the situation that we're seeing for Jack right now, or would the offer add an extra layer to it?

Remmy: No, not Jack. I think it would have been really interesting to see Cas offer to heal Jack, and then to heal Jack and for Jack to say, “Well, what about you?”

Bea: Mmmm.

Remmy: So for Cas to explicitly, textually, just shrug off his own well-being.

Bea: Yeah, to extend health and vitality to someone else while not giving it to himself.

Remmy: Exactly. That would have been super interesting.

Bea: I liked also that Cas is trying to comfort him and saying [Jack’s] grace should regenerate, but if it doesn't then, you know… Jack is still concerned that he can't do anything, and he doesn't have anything, and I really like that Cas turns it around and says, “That's not true. You've got me. You've got all of us. You have your family, and we are going to find Dean.” And it's not shown to be exactly what Mary's doing — like, Mary is forcing herself to have optimism — but to me, I read that Cas genuinely has faith. He is not considering the alternative, he just can't picture a world where they don't succeed in this, and he is trying to extend that same level of confidence to Jack. That things will be alright, including Jack himself.

Remmy: I totally agree. And it was so refreshing to see Cas kind of telling Jack the same things that we've been wishing he would accept for himself the past few seasons.

Bea: Yeah, that this is almost a lesson that he is learning by doing.

Remmy: Oh yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Bea: Yeah. By telling Jack “You have family,” he is also affirming for himself that he has family, because Cas is not one to lie to the people that he cares about if he can help it. And so for him to tell these things to Jack in earnest, then it speaks of a measure that he has internalized these thoughts of himself too, and I really like that.

Remmy: Absolutely. He's telling Jack, “You are not the measure — your utility is not the measure of your worth,” and that something, it's the Castiel Factor.

Bea: Yes.

Remmy: And it's so — it was so good to hear and, like I said, we're going to be hearing more about it later.

Bea: Yeah, and I'm so happy. It's about time.

Remmy: Mhmm. And we have Sam in the war room.

Bea: Sam heading to his bedroom.

Remmy: Oh no, you're so right. Yes.

Bea: Yes, he was finally looking like he was ready to retire for the night and then, lo and behold, an unknown number is calling.

Remmy: [sighs] No rest for the wicked.

Bea: Yep, nope. This poor boy, any second he's about to eat or sleep it's like, “No, we're going to keep that moodlet low. You better keep your Social up.”

Remmy: Augh, I know right? When he handed his bowl of soup off to Mary I was just like — the directing and the writing for this episode were very good.

Bea: Yes, we got a lot of “show” moments.

Remmy: It was great. It was really great. So Sam gets this call.

Bea: And here’s Jo saying that, “Yeah, we have a problem.” And we go into our final scene, which is Michael speaking to a vampire, just basically pointing out that this monster’s nature is not pretending. It's wants are pure, simple and clean, and that makes it worth saving. They'll work well together. So yeah, we've seen just in the span of this episode that Michael is going around looking for something that passes his level of judgment, and when we hear what he's saying about this vampire, y’know, “You have simple needs and that was what makes you worthy of saving,” you know Michael just wants a pet. He doesn't want the complexity of contradicting wants and behaviors; he wants something that is very simple and straightforward and useful to him.

Remmy: Well, I would almost consider it he's looking for heaven on earth. Where the host of angels is very, y’know, they're very simple. They’re sheep, right?

Bea: Ooh, interesting.

Remmy: They don't have wants or needs. Look at season 4 or 5, and look at the last two seasons with the apocalypse world. The angels are soldiers, and they're mindless.

Bea: They’re subservient.

Remmy: Blind soldiers at that. They're very simple creatures. I mean, putting it in the most general of layman's terms, they are soulless in a way.

Bea: And I guess Michael's already seen that the angels in this world have been corrupted by what he perceives as human influences, so there's no real saving it to him. He's going to throw that baby out with the bathwater.

Remmy: Exactly, and there's none left. There's only a handful of angels left. He has no army, so he's — I think, like you said, he's looking for a pet. He's looking for worship.

Bea: He's looking for further sheep.

Remmy: He is. He's looking for further sheep. I don't know, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of ways that you can take him. I think that in the moment, when I was watching it, I was a little like, “Where is this going? What are his motivations?”

Bea: Oh, see — I was thrilled when I first saw that he was turning to the monsters and being like, “You know what? I like you guys, and we're going to work well together.” I thought that was such a compelling turn, that our world gets put through judgment and what is found most worthy is those things that people would shy away from, y’know? “I want to bite, and so I'm going to bite.” Just going with more impulsive behavior without the higher forethought that you're trained from being children. That truth, honor, justice, love, peace… All of these concepts, he's like, “No, you guys don't even really get it. Let's just stick back to the basics.”

Remmy: These concepts that Michael views as lies. Lies of self, because no one holds true to anything, to any virtue, or any of this. What they say is they want is not.

Bea: Yeah. He's disenchanted with these concepts, and to see people who still believe in them is just disappointing to him. He considers you unworthy at that point, if you still have faith in these higher concepts.

Remmy: Yes, and I'm — I did like the vampire-Michael conversation. I thought that was a great ending line.

Bea: Yeah, and I keep bashing this nail on the head: it wasn't even a conversation; it was Michael speaking to this vampire sitting in a chair. The vampire has no speaking lines, so again I'm like, he's not looking for a dialogue. He's not looking to be challenged. He's looking for a pet that he can point in the direction that is best benefiting him.

Remmy: Or is just most pleasing to him. It doesn't even benefit him. He sees himself as top dog. He's got nothing. He is God. “God is gone and I am absolute.” So it's just like he is steering the world. It's his own personal sandbox. His playground.

Bea: Yeah. “This place is open to my taking. I can mold it as I see fit, and this is what I have deemed fit.”

Remmy: “And I am going to create a world in my image.”

Bea: “A better world.”

Remmy: And we don't exactly know at this point what went wrong in the apocalypse world.

Bea: Or what he intends to fix in this one.

Remmy: So that's coming up.

Bea: Dun dun dunnn.

Remmy: Yeah, it was a good — it was a good episode.

Bea: Honestly, yeah. I remember at the time of it coming out some people were like, it felt really slow, but at the same time I would argue that it was what it needed to be. We carried through the tone and worries that came up with the season 13 finale, and we [kept] that pace it introduced and carr[ied] forward with it.

Remmy: Do you have any final thoughts? What was your takeaway?

Bea: Um. I loved the invoking of the image of Sam, the boy King of Hell, and just having that moment to see the denizens of Hell that are scrabbling to have that same influence that he has. Sam doesn't even need to put effort into wielding that influence. He doesn't care to, it just emanates from him.

Remmy: Bea, no fair! That was my takeaway.

Bea: Well, too bad! Pick another one.

Remmy: [laughs] Yeah, no, I…

Bea: Umm, Anael and her skirt.

Remmy: Anael and her skirt? It was the coat, Bea.

Bea: I liked the skirt.

Remmy: Uh-huh. Yes. Sam through this episode: phenomenal. And I was just so hyped. I was so hyped about Sam's command of the room there, it was so powerful.

Bea: Yes, to see him fall in that role.

Remmy: Yeah and, like I said, he doesn't even have to try for it. He doesn't even want it, he just exudes it. It was just loads of fun. I don't have another one, I just like that one.

Bea: Yeah, I know, that one was excellent. I guess the other thing that I could do was, y’know, Kip, I'm sorry for judging you so harshly on that first watch. You had a lot of depth to you, and your arc concludes in one episode and I think that was right, but at the same time you had a lot of nuance that you were carrying while being so irritating (and intentionally so).

Remmy: He did, yeah.

Bea: So, thank you. I'm sorry that we did you dirty by not giving you the glory you deserved on initial watch.

Remmy: I'm actually pretty sad that he got smoked out in his one-episode arc. I was — Kip, you were gone too soon.

Bea: [laughs]

Remmy: Yep, yep. Well, so that was episode 1.

Bea: Stranger in a Strange Land.

Remmy: Yeah. And next week Sunday — we publish every Sunday — we are going to do episode 2. I hope you guys enjoyed this. We have we enjoyed doing it, and we want you guys to enjoy it too, and we want you to engage with us! You can reach us on social media. We're nochickflickpodcast@gmail.com if you want to email us some questions. If there's some meta or some topics —

Bea: — or something you think we missed, or that you wanted to elaborate on. I mean, I would love to hear more thoughts.

Remmy: Right. Do you guys want that 20 minutes on me talking about Sam and the hunter hub? Because eyyy.

Bea: Yeah, we're on Tumblr at [nochickflickpodcast](nochickflickpodcast.tumblr.com), Twitter at [nochickflickpod](http://www.twitter.com/nochickflickpod), and our gmail is nochickflickpodcast@gmail.com. As always, if you could subscribe to us wherever you get your podcast, that is an excellent way to keep updated on all of the nonsense that we want to talk about in the future.

Remmy: Yeah, and if you enjoy our episodes, then leave a review. And, y’know, we're on Tumblr with some of our meta so spread that around too. It'll be fun.

Bea: Sunday, Sunday, be there, be there.

Remmy: Yeah, Sunday, Sunday, be there, be there.

Bea: Thank you for joining guys and we'll talk to you later!

Remmy: Yes, bye!

Bea: Bye.


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